My answer:
As I said, it wasn't that image in particular, it was a plethora of images like it, that were ONE of MANY reasons I quit comics (other than writing and drawing my own).
Previews and Wizard are comics' two biggest print faces, and they're -embarassing-. It's the "Hurr hurr hurr" a GURL" in four colors. And that image, and others like it, play straight to that, and how can anyone wonder why comics are seen as that weird uncle you doon't leave alone with the kids?
Most of what passes for comics (output, shops, conventions, and attitude) in the U.S. has a locker room stank that has not lessened in twenty years, not even with the influx of women creators, or manga.
And that is not for me. I gladly leave the making, selling and reading of this faux porn to the people who enjoy it. Everyone needs a place to be, after all.
It's a bit simple to say it's sexism, and to lay the blame on one image (which I didn't). Miller's para encapsulates a "HUrr, hurr hurrr a GURL" attitude that has been present in comics (U.S. comics) that I noticed the first time I walked into a speciality shop in 1982.
From that time to now, I've gone from offers of rooms, dates, dinner or breakfast har-de-har and gropings to being told I won't get a series because I was pregnant, I didn't need to be sent a check on time because I was breastfeeding so I didn't have to worry about needing the money to feed the baby, to being told (by a marketing manager) perhaps my husband could write my book in a way he could understand, to being laughed at for having an objection to having my books printed by slave labor, to seeing...you get the idea.
Enough was ehough. I don't like the comics business, I never have, and I realized it would feel so good to stop beating my head against the wall.
And, frankly, guys can be sympathetic, but they'll never know what it's like to have a career that spans the spectrum from being fondled by someone in front of other people at a private party (San Diego, year 2) to being fondled in front of other people at a private party (San Diego, this year).
Profile
![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif)
divalea- Lea Hernandez-DivaLea
- Atelier DivaLea
Page Summary
- shinzakura : (no subject) [+2]
- hirudo : (no subject) [+2]
- kyburg : (no subject) [+2]
- kynn : (no subject) [+1]
- rfrancis : (no subject) [+1]
- ericmonster : (no subject) [+7]
- thebfg : (no subject) [+1]
- doronjosama : (no subject) [+2]
- ldragoon : (no subject) [+2]
- lfw : (no subject) [+1]
- serrana : (no subject) [+1]
- realtegan : Wow wow ... ow [+1]
Comments
I can't believe that anyone would be that brazen, regardless of who you are. Sorry for stating the obvious, but that's just wrongheaded and disgusting. One would think that asshats like that would have a little more respect, but I suppose I don't have the "right mindset" (read: level of immaturity) for this industry.
Some of us still have a ways to go before we climb out of "Neanderthal" and into "Cro-Magnon", apparently.
In a way, this is true of many many industries. Things like the "Vicki Vale Butt Incident" just make it more obvious in comics. Not that that makes it better in any way. One of the reasons I like geeks and nerds is that they are non-standard people. The standards are pretty low in way too many places, and this is one of them.
That is frankly disgusting behaviour.Do you think it's a US convention thing though? I've been attending British conventions for several years and I can't think of any time I've been pawed,leered at or generally been treated like a sex object/brainless idiot.
I'd quite like to attend an american con at some point in the future when I'm more well-known/richer but if there is that sort of attitude to female creators there then I can forsee some knee-to-groin action going on!
I don't think it is (at least, I hope not). I know the con that I usually attend (and staff), AnimeUSA, no one would stand for that at all. Likewise, I can say that there are several other cons that wouldn't put up with that in any case.
Of course, it does have to be said that I'm talking about anime/manga cons. "Pure" comics cons are a different breed, and the testosterone levels there might get in the way of braincells functioning properly (if at all).
I was not overwhelmed by the testosteroni-ness* of conventions like Anime Expo, Anime Weekend Atlanta and Anime America circa 1993 to 1997. It wasn't just how few girls attended, it was also the "Euuw, girls are in our treehouse!" attitude of various staffers.
Conventions are an entirely different experience as a guest than they are as an attendee, too, and I haven't been an attendee at a con in fifteen or so years.
I guess what I meant to say was it's better to be a female attendee at an aime con now than it was (you'll have plenty of company of your own age and gender), there are few anime cons I will go to (Anime Iowa and, uh, Anime Iowa), and I don't know about comic coonventions.
I look at their guest lists and see nothing but names of men who work for the Big Two (or Image and its offshoots and variants), and think "That's not for me!"
Thank you, no. I can drive a desk for a living - and be happy. I do.
(And I do it in a department where I'm one of five women (in a group of over 50) and the only blonde. It may get earthy in there, but the guys don't direct it at me and even apologize. Love it.)
But you know, I saw a lot of females who didn't object to the fondling, the space-invading (and often invited it) - and gee, they got promoted. "They liked the environment."
All implied. You know, you get fired for that kind of stuff, you get caught - and people sue. And so forth.
--Kynn
Yeah, this is what I've been trying to say and not doing a good job of it. Thanks for having the right words.
I'm glad I got introduced to you before you rightfully fled. It lets me think right now "that person I met at SD? She's being RIGHT."
Best of luck in what you choose to do.
-R
I got locker room stink (but I choose stank because it's like "stink" and "dank") from Warren Ellis.
The first time I read that I thought you were objecting to Slave Labor Graphics. Now I'm guessing you're talking about actual sweat shops printing your books?
I'm not sure how I feel about that Jim Lee/Frank Miller booty shot. Well, to a certain extent I know how I feel in that I haven't bought a super hero book in almost a decade and haven't set foot in a comics shop in even longer. I flipped through Jim Lee's Hush in a book store a while back thinking the artwork might be really inspiring but it really did nothing for me (mostly becuase the super-glossy coloring ruined it). But it just ain't my thing. And I honestly don't get why there's such an apparent demand for booty shots in comics with the plethora of actual booties in real life and porn everywhere. I mean if someone wants to stare at a hot ass, and their social skills are so shitty that they can't find anyone who'll let them stare at their actual hot ass, they're turning to Batman instead of buying Hot Ass Magazine?
But part of me says that if Frank and Jim want to make booty comics, let them make whatever comics they want to make. And if sex-starved social misfits everywhere want to spend their money drooling over Jim Lee's booty drawings then let 'em. It beats the alternative of having them stare at stranger's asses at the mall or pre-school or whatever. Or maybe it encourages perverted real-world ass-staring, I don't know.
Anyway, I guess I lean towards: T&A super hero comics are pretty stupid but if people want to make and read them that's fine with me. Just don't be staring at or grabbing innapropriate real world asses. If i'm gonna pick a fight, I'll pick it with the ass-grabbers, not with the ass-drawers.
"Ass-drawers" sounds like a weird synonym for "pants."
-R
HELLS YES I LOVE ME THEM NURSE NOVELS!!! But would I patronize a store that sold nothing but super hero comics? As I wrote above, no. I do my book shopping in actual bookstores and online, and I don't buy super hero funny books. I have a lot of nostalgia for some of those old Marvel super heroes I read about when I was 12, but now that I'm 13 I'm beyond that. I'm all nurse novels, nurse novels and nurse novels.
I think we're in agreement that booty comics are "tiresome and offputting" for us, and that unwelcome booty grabbing is "appalling."
What I find stranger than the idea that Frank and Jim have booty fetishes that rival Sir Mix-A-Lot's is when I see a woman artist drawing some big-boobied heroine or another. If Jim Lee had drawn the same page I'd just chalk it up to "Jim likes big tits." A woman draws it and then it's questions about whether her drawings of large-chested women reveal her own body issues, her celebration of her body, an industry forcing her to convey a body image she's uncomfortable with, etc. etc.
And, again, Miller's script is a perfect example of a locker room attitude within the business, and makes me glad I'm not in it.
The fact that he has such an attitude is not such a surprise. The fact that he feels it's okay to express this attitude in a script which then get passed around to various other comic professionals, none of whom apparently batted an eye it, is the real problem.
I've had those "how about dinner? no? what about breakfast then?" conversations as well, and every time I've had to laugh them off. And it's always from some guy who I've literally just met moments before. How clueless... and worst of all, some were from industry veterans. My first few comic conventions made me feel like a piece of meat that had been tossed into a tank of pirahnas. (I, like you, was awfully young and dressed awfully girly and sexy at the time. But you know, how I choose to dress shouldn't be an invitation to people to try to play grab ass.)
Anime cons are better these days. At least at anime cons, when I tell people I am in charge of my company, they accept it and believe it, and don't try to make end runs around me to my boyfriend. Which happens all the time in comics.
I disagree. The only possible answer: you're Schrodinger's Elin! ;-)
I guess I've been living in a bit of a bubble.
you were fondled at a private party?
YOU GO GIRL!
But seriously, I do know EXACTLY what you're talking about. The so called "mainstream" of the comics business lacks so much class and sofistication.
I think what you're doing in "quitting" comics is the best news I heard in while. Go your own way and do your own thing, the worst that can happen is that you'll be fondled twice as more.
keep up the good fight diva
Bless you.
-Laura Gjovaag
I like to think it's my very own estrogen powered "Xenogenesis."
(Harlan Ellison's famous essay about crazy-ass fans.)