Something about Melchior's entry here, put me in a ranty mood this mornin':
4. Off the top of my head, Wonder Woman, Catwoman, Birds of Prey, and Spider-Girl are just about the only titles with strong central women that I can urge my female students to read without reservation.
What I mean is, they generally don't contain excessive numbers of panels which are blatant fan service. I don't have to say to my female students "If you can get past the way the women are sometimes drawn, the plotting is really effective," or "You can tell by how the women are written that the book isn't just a conveyance for sexist imagery." (This last, a comment I've had to make several times about my beloved Birds of Prey during Ed Benes' run as penciller.)
First, I urge Melchior to read more widely, because there are wonderful appropriate books beyond the output of the Big Two, and they DON'T have to be qualified, not even a tiny bit, at least on the grounds of fan service. Second, I don't want Melchior to feel I'm attacking him. I think what he has to say is valuable, even as it is telling.
But, to the rant. Melchior's qualification is a common one: "If you can get past the (ass shots, fan service, obsession with tits, reduction of your gender to component parts), you, as a female reader, will like the book."
So, I ranted, what if women qualified things generally considered "girly" in a smiliar fashion to convince men to try them?
"If you can get past the fact that you're not plumbed to bleed for five or so days, you could enjoy menstruation."
"If you can get past the likelihood that other guys will call you faggot and possibly beat the shit out of you, you could totally rock that pink Hello Kitty backpack."
"If you can get past the cooing over how sweet and hunky the male star is, you could really enjoy just about any chick flick."
"If you can get past the lame-clad pensises being shoved in your face, you can really enjoy the artful performance of a troupe of male strippers."
Profile
divalea- Lea Hernandez-DivaLea
- Atelier DivaLea
Page Summary
- paulobrien : (no subject) [+0]
- thesentinel : (no subject) [+0]
- asim : (no subject) [+1]
- centauress : (no subject) [+1]
- cynthia1960 : Make every man have at least one Shark Week! [+1]
- morchades : (no subject) [+5]
- (Anonymous) : (no subject) [+0]
- ldragoon : (no subject) [+0]
- vassilissa : (no subject) [+2]
- (Anonymous) : (no subject) [+3]
- sclerotic_rings : (no subject) [+1]
- (Anonymous) : (no subject) [+11]
Comments
But I *liked* JUST LIKE HEAVEN. Reese Witherspoon was in it...
That aside, I would agree that making excuses for something up front does not exactly validate it as something to be recommended. If you're going to take a comic and declare it read-worthy it should stand alone without disclaimers. Making excuses only allows mediocrity to flourish.
I was a member of NOW for a couple of years. I've heard similar from the mouths of more than one well-meaning lady...
Or try explaining how women in sequins, chiffon skirts and push-up bras are emblematic of strong females (and they are, amazingly/sadly enough). Such discussions w/drooling "men" and skeptical women tends to make my forehead bleed, because I know _exactly_ what they're seeing, no matter what blinders the dance community has put on themselves.
I'm due to write an article on belly dance for a new online rag. Do you mind if I (with attribution) use your posts here as a jumping off point? You make some strong points about the role of women in media, overall, that resonate with my experiences in the dance world all too well, and I'm a straight guy!
Hey, I remember my first away convention as a fan-girl... Sharing a room and being molested in the middle of the night by a 'friend' of a friend. Of course, my friend wouldn't have any of that, and I learned to stand up for myself. (One lesson of many, unfortunately)
Thank you for working to find the words to stand up against this blatent sexism in the big comics.
The only thing I can wonder about this blow up is if there's anything I can do as a fangirl to help - I don't buy comics when they turn sour, and I try my best to make the artists feel appreciated. What could someone like me do to help you?
That's a very good question, how to help. I will think about it.
Thanks for posting.
Ha! Bleeding for 25% of my adult life! Such a deal, isn't it? I've got the correct plumbing, but I don't enjoy it at all. Chocolate and Motrin are the only things that make it even marginally tolerable.
Of course, I wish I could automagically make every man who makes a comment about a woman being on the rag go through a really hellish shark week. Because I am a mostly merciful goddess-wannabe, I'd only do that once, but that once would be *memorable*.
I was gonna say that in return, we could have rectal exams. But wait, we already do.
I don't know, I kinda use this one in "Who's the Stronger Gender?" arguments. "Let's see you bleed for five days without dying."
Then died?
I'm guessing you'd feel pretty bad, hmmm?
(No I'm not joking. But this one was an accident.)
Kind of like, uh, gee, yeah, no woman's never seen THAT before....
What squicks me in injuries is not the blood at all, it's seeing things I do not normally see: muscle, bone, guts, and limbs bending the WRONG WAY.
My li'l "THAT AIN'T RIGHT" lizard brain goes Blurf!
But the blood? Pshaw.
I'm told that I can have this rant-inducing effect on people. (And someone once told me that if I can't be interesting, I should at least try to be "telling".) No, I don't feel attacked, and your point, and these comments, are well taken, too.
One small clarification:
The situation I discussed in my questionable post was not one where I'm advising female students about what comics to read from my position in front of the classroom as their teacher. I don't spend time outside of class trying to convice my female students to read superhero comics, either. Actually, the conversation only arises when a female student, (more often than not a feminist), notices a DC or Marvel comic on my desk during office hours and asks me about it. It's definitely not me trying to get them to like something that I might like.
What I usually hear is: "Why do you read that stuff?
The situation is actually one in which they're asking me to justify the comic's presence on my desk.
Best wishes,
m.
But yeah, your point is a good one. It extends beyond comics. Women are expected from birth to make empathic leaps men are not. Get past the lack of strong female characters in children's stories like Wind in the Willows and The House At Pooh Corner. In schools, study literature, philosophy, religion, and get past what the male writers actually *say* about women to the big, important ideas beyond it (in which women may or may not have a place.) Study history, and get past the eradication of women's roles in it to what the curriculum says you're supposed to learn from it. Then, if you're heterosexual (or even if you're not) you're encouraged to get past whatever you might have wanted, and get married, and don't get me started on that.
Mainstream comics is not alone in making unreasonable demands on its female readers, it's just a particularly stinky little backwater, corporately dammed up so it doesn't change that much.
I.e., the only "real" fans are the ones who are drooling over girls -- that is to say, teenage boys, whether chronologically teenagers or not.
(No, sorry, the comics industry is NOT catering to lesbians, teenage or otherwise, by throwing in "fanservice.")
Yeah, okay, the term can be broadened a little, but ultimately the roots of it are what
Beyond the homophobia aspect, guys are competative. The last thing they're gonna want is potential competition with their girlfriend, someone their li'l hunny-buny (who they're trying so hard to turn into a dirrrty dirrrty girl) might like more than them. It's another fun double-standard; another woman is not only a huge turn-on but not competition because she doesn't wield the Magic Penis. Another guy is a scummy bastard who might take his woman from him.
Gail
Me, I don't think it's a "bullshit self-hating term", I think it describes something for the fans, whether it's a character's catchphrase that drives a studio audience wild, or a sudden explosion of Victoria's Secret in Batman.
But that's just me, I'm not on a pretend crusade.
Gail
Jesus Christ Gail, unclench.
You know, maybe, just maybe, as hard as this is to believe, this isn't about you. Since when did stating the facts about this shitty industry make you uncomfortable?
Or was WiR just a pretend crusade? You certainly do all you can to distance yourself from it now. What about YABS? Was that a pretend crusade? When the Hell did you go from being the Jon Stewart of the comics industry and become it's apologist? You, of all people, who once told me you had been a rape crisis counselor!?
If you can't stand by the principles in which you once claimed believe, then why don't you do us all a favor and get a goddamned hobby. Maybe you can go back to persecuting that harmless J-Bolt guy. That seems about your speed.
You know the truth of this as much as I do, and we're both a little bit too polite to state it in public. So, I don't know if you're playing to the rafters or what, but, girl, PLEASE.
And Lea, you're not my enemy. Sorry. But please don't pretend I don't know your style.
Gail
Thanks to you, we haven’t had a real conversation in so long that I wonder how can you possibly assume that you and I would know the same "truth" about anything.
You and I once asked each other to pre-read our scripts before publication. You and I (and Lea) once had a grand old time laughing at the stupidity that runs rampant in this industry.
The last two times we spoke in IM it was because you needed Lea’s email address. Beyond that, you’ve told me you just didn’t have time to talk, so I took the hint and stopped IMing you. I stopped sending you emails because you never answer them anymore.
But I’ve watched you, Gail. I’ve watched your attitude change in pace with your career and it makes me ill. I’ve seen you get jerked around and make compromises then pretend in public that none of it happened. I’ve seen you quietly disavow your old opinions in favor of writing for and defending a book that seems to celebrate everything you once reviled. Bondage? Torture? Inescapable and ubiquitous crotch shots? And you dare to accuse others of being fake? Seriously, Gail, What the fuck?
”Lisa, what did the horse leave behind in the parade?”
Our friendship, apparently, since I’m "playing to the rafters." Enjoy living in the glass house Gail built.
Oh, my god, this is pathetic.
I don't know where to start.
WiR, I thought was obsolete by the time I made the website. The people who thought it made me an advocate for boring comics were always wrong. I was bored by it then and I'm more bored now, which is easy to see if you actually read the site. There's been no gradual distruction of my moral center. It was about a specific question that the industry was already self-correcting, but which has seemed to cycle back around a bit lately, which I've talked about many times. Your memory is, I'm sorry, way off. This disavowing thing is completely in your imagination.
Not sure what pretending I've done when I've been 'jerked around.' In general, I'm not much for constant whining in public. I think that's allowed, right?
The rest, honestly, I'm just not mean enough to get into in public. But don't pretend we didn't have many, many long conversations about being dragged in unwillingly into crusades of persecution precisely like this one. The players change, but the lack of personal responsibility is always, always absent. And you KNOW that. You've SAID it to me.
I write Birds of Prey. It's an adventure comic, featuring hot women. I'm not ashamed of it in the least, and I reject your characterization of what the book is about. And what bondage? In our first story, Canary is bound to deliberately show that she would never be a hostage again, and she hasn't, dozens of issues later. You'll be happy to know the only 'bondage' since is a hot half-naked gay guy. It's much better to criticize something if you read it, Lisa.
I sent you a letter. Here's my email: gailcbr@yahoo.com
As for the rest, I'd prefer not to escalate this any further in public. It's simply not worth it.
Best wishes to you both,
Gail
Regarding those long conversations, I remember things a little differently. I remember you venting and me mm-hmming in sympathy. I remember trying to get you to talk directly to Lea, the person with whom you were so angry. I remember everything that ever went wrong being anybody's fault but yours, mostly Lea's, but never yours. I remember Lea owning up to her mistakes. I don't remember you ever doing the same. Then I remember you vanishing when you acquired more interesting people to talk to. And you talk about personal responsibility.
I was content to let you go on with your career as you saw fit, even if I didn't agree with it. But you coming to insert yourself into a conversation that had nothing to do with you, and insinuating that Lea's opinion was fake, was unacceptable. Lea may be many things, but fake isn't one of them.
Whenever you're ready to send that email, I'll be here. So far, my inbox is empty.
It's a bit ironic, though, since you spoke quite fondly of the last violent girl book I co-created, where lots worse happened, if I remember correctly. ;)
Lisa, fine, I'll go with your version of events. Fine. That's certainly a billion and a half miles from how I remember it, but these things happen.
I sent you an email, but perhaps the address is old. As it is, really, say what you like. I believe this is a series of unfortunate posts caused by some hurt feelings, and I don't think that's any of our intent, so...you know, good luck with your future projects and hope we're past this silliness soon. As with all flame wars, eventually, I come to my sense and regret my participation.
Best,
Gail
I agree that this discussion has played itself out. We’re done here.
Goodbye Gail, pax vobiscum.
"If Gail Simone needs to have an enemy, needs to feel persecuted, you know what? Here's my Wondercon gift to her. Are you ready? All right. I'm your enemy. Make me your enemy. I, Lea Hernandez, hate comics, comics professionals, the direct market, DC, Marvel, and fans and I will not rest until every year comics readers gather to spend a long weekend in July or August together at Wertham's homo-bitteroldwoman-manga-and-"real" books-fanserviceporium."
Gail